Monday, January 30, 2012

The Standard 558, May 5, 1900

The Standard 558 (1900-05-05.Standard Press) v21 (some missing and clipped pgs)(D&M)

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Get the full hi-res scan here.

The lower caption: "Raw! Raw! Raw! Roysterers on the Half Shell! Good, whether in season or out of season, for there's always an "R" in girl. Another strong poing in favor of this delicacy is that tobasco sauce and other kinds of dressing are not absolutely necessary. They go just as well without. All in all, the subject certainly furnishes food for serious reflection." Above, the teaser lines read, "Life Behind The Scenes. Reading Sapho. Who'll Undress First - A Bottle of Wine the Stake. See the New Stockings Mamma Bought for Her!"

Oysters! I've never liked them too much myself, but this gentleman is quite ravenous for them. A delightful cover here - it's fun to see such a vintage magazine toying with photography. New printing technologies brought the photo cheaply to the page, and the great appeal of this magazine was no doubt the wall-to-wall photos, a feast for the eyes.

Continuing our look at The Standard, today's quick post is of an issue approximately one month after the post from last week.

The indicia page. Photos of Ada Grey. At the time seeing girls in pants was a rarity, so I would assume these pictures of Ada in shorts and stockings were an eye-opener.


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Nellie Potter, burlesque star, on the adjoining page:

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Looking at Ada and Nellie, we see that the women of the stage in that time might have a far fuller figure than you'd expect from a stage star these days. Shapely is the compliment the editors use applauding the form. A century later, you won't see such natural figures gracing the pages of either the American magazine or the burlesque stage.

From the same page as Nellie, turn of the century schoolgirls. The schoolgirl is ever-appealing to us cretinous males:




A group of Duluth girls lounging about the bed, playing at a game of Hearts. More than a bit of voyeurism at work with the "fly on the wall" setup of many of the magazine's photos.

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And women smoking! These days you might not see such in a magazine for PC reasons but at the time of this magazine the sight of a girl smoking was taboo. One society girl has even sent in a photo of herself having a puff.



A photo for the leg man. "Wage-earners"?! One quickly observes the male fascination with legs in this period. Maybe it is because we were never allowed to see much of them.


Gotta stay fit for the ballet somehow. Or maybe it's just fun to jump over brooms.


Those stagehands tell such dirty stories. A Harlem girl shows of the new stockings Mama bought her. Watch out, mama!


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Big thanks to McCoy for his edit work on the issue!

Next time, a look at The Standard seven years later, after it has merged with Vanity Fair.

Thursday, January 26, 2012

The Standard, April 1900 / Stage-Door Johnny and the Appeal of Broadway

The Standard 554 (1900-04.Standard Press)(D&M)

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Get the full hi-res scan here.

Breaking out of the box?

Today I offer an interesting publication I don't really know too much about (like that's something new), a stage/theater/vaudeville/society magazine called The Standard that merged with what was apparently a similar magazine in Vanity Fair (completely separate, I gather, from the publication that continues to this day by the same name). Today, we might not recognize these magazines as gentleman's magazines, and, indeed, there probably was a wider readership, but the wall to wall pictures of girls says otherwise. Over a century later, our modes of entertainment are very different. This was the age of the the stage - the theater, music halls, vaudeville, and other dramatic entertainments flourished in big cities, and the magazines regarding this night life stepped out of the normal bounds of propriety. Before the explosion of humor, artists models, flapper mags and girlie pulps in the 20s, some of the first magazines to make a habit of putting girls on display, relishing in risque innuendo and stretching the public tolerance for a bit of exposed flesh were the theater and early movie magazines of the previous decades.

Starlets and stage girls sold movie tickets, and they sold magazines, too. The sin centers of Broadway and Hollywood paraded their lovelies across the pages of many publications in a reciprocal arrangement that gave free advertising to entertainment moguls and free models to the publisher. I'll write more about the Hollywood connection and movie magazines later on in this series, but for now I want to do a couple of posts on Broadway-centric publications. Broadway would be immortalized in the late 20s and 30s in a number of girlie pulp titles including Broadway Nights, Gay Broadway, Broadway Follies, and Broadway Night LifeBroadway Night Life, along with New York Nights and Cabaret Stories, a testament to the sex appeal of New York night life. Certainly location is not all that is evoked by these titles but also a wider relationship between men on the town and the girls who entertained them. The chorus girl had a tight grip on the imagination of the American male. Francis Smilby writing in Stolen Sweets about the birth of LVP writes on the subject of the "stage door johnny" in France:

The stage door of the theater was, certainly from the eighteenth century at least, a place where gentlemen of taste, refinement and money could meet pretty girls who, though not social equals, had the advantage of possessing virtue that was indirectly purchasable without being chalked up in the brutal economic terms of the whore; girls with whom some semblance of a relationship could be enjoyed.

During late Victorian times, a prosperous leisured class had time and money on its hands. The entertainment industry, the theater and music hall, thrived, and so did the stage-door johnny. Wives appeared quite happy to be left in sexual peace, and to endure, or indeed accept, there husbands' extramarital affairs. Provided, that is, that they were of an approved social level. A love affair with an equal might rate as infidelity, where as a mere affaire with an inferior - an actress or showgirl - did not endanger the social status of the wife.


Similar arrangements took place in America, too, no doubt. But let's get to some bits from this April 1904 issue of The Standard. The Standard was published simultaneously in New York and London, and the Masthead lists some circulation figures:


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Also on the first page, Dottie Goodyear, stage actress, shows some leg, anything above the ankle was prone to raise some eyebrows:


One characteristic of The Standard is at times artful experimentation with photography, superimposing images on backgrounds is one of the more common techniques, but there is also neat tricks with combining figures and objects of different scale.

Prancing about The Bowery:

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The centerfold uses a similar technique but uses dozens of figures. I imagine putting all these photos together took some doing and skill.

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This photo stands out in the issue for inventiveness with photographic trickery:

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The most common theme among the photographs in the The Standard seems to be chorus girls at play. Just imagine what those girls get up to with no gentlemen around:

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Spanked for flirting with the manager of the company?! Oh my...

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Wash day. Wet t-Shirt contest!!!! Erm...

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A variety of entertainment.

Scrollable Image. There's a photo of Burr McIntosh on the scrollable image. Sometime I'll do a post on his Burr McIntosh Monthly, a very neat magazine that ran from 1903-1910.

Beyond its place as a proto-girlie magazine, The Standard is of interest as stage History. Here's Ethel Barrymore of the famed Barrymore clan as a young woman:


Or here's an actress I've never heard of, I'm assuming from Vaudeville, Josie Sadler, apparently a physical comedienne:

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And if,after reading the publication, you shake your head that I'd call it a girlie magazine (with wall to wall photos of ladies, you'll surely come to the same conclusion), I offer up the ad page as evidence of the readership. I'll clip a few sections out then post a scrollable image with even more.

Cures for STDs and Impotency


I assume this is an abortifacient. The ad pages of the girlie pulps would become one of the few early outlets for women's birth control products. I'll write a little bit about Margaret Sanger's purported involvement with magazines and magazine distributors in the 20s later on in this series on the birth of the girlie pulp.


Whoa, a 110 year old penis pump. Can't say I've run across an ad for such a device in such an old publication before.


A marketing ploy for a new magazine. Every subscription comes with a bottle of whiskey. A home life mag at that, heh heh.


And here is the scrollable image for the whole page of advertisements.

A very foreign girlie mag to the modern reader perhaps, but the little ads in the back haven't changed so much, eh?

Next time here on D&M scans (big thanks to McCoy for the excellent edit on today's issue!), another issue of The Standard from shortly hereafter as well a 1907 incarnation of the publication after it has merged with Vanity Fair.

Friday, January 13, 2012

The Standard in Gay Paree, April 1901

The Standard Quarterly v04n23 In Gay Paree (1901-04) (Darwination)


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Get the full hi-res scan here.

Cover artist unknown. I love the design and the red inks. Who wouldn't want to take a peek at what's inside?

I have a few issues to share and discuss next post of a turn-of-the-century proto-girlie magazine, the weekly issued The Standard, but I thought I'd transition from the last scan of a French photo album first to an American album, also of French girls, a quarterly edition of The Standard. This edition takes a look at fashions and the girls of Paris, as the whole world looked to France as a beacon of fashion and modernity. Unlike the weekly edition, the quarterly edition is bound on a coverstock featuring colored ink and is composed almost entirely of pictures and captions. Some of the girls within have a unique beauty of peculiar character, I doubt you'd find them in the fashion magazines of today. Today, it's hard to recognize the racy aspects of a magazine like this, but there is much leg and bare shoulders on display in an era that seemingly frowned on such display.

The edition opens with a neat art nouveau illustration of a series of postcards, "The Five Senses," and an ode to the girls of Bohemian Paris. A photograph of Mlle. Mendes accompanies, showing the reader a little leg.


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"A group of group of shoulders, lines, and s-curves"

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Mme. Sinclair, opera singer, a bit of dirt thrown in the corner regarding a Captain Le Fevre, apparently disinherited in some type of scandal. I like curves as much as the next guy, but the curves of the corsets in here can be downright strange.


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Another crazy corset, a miss Meaty Fleuron, implied to be a burlesque artist. I see some web mentions of her as an actress. That's one crazy hat for sure.


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The centerfold. Letuce, the artists' model poses eating grapes, playing flute, sleeping by the edge of a brook.


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Burlesque and vaudeville stars. The Darling Sisters, Jermonde, Mme. Devieux, Cleo De Merode, Yven Chatalet - "one of the daring exponents of the extreme school of burlesque." I'm not sure what the teachings of that school are, but I think I'm supposed to be curious...


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Nice blue inks from the inside back cover.

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Ciriac, Burlesque Star, eats a plate of oysters

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There are many more images within. How different were the fashions of 110 years ago.

Next time, I'll take a look at the weekly edition of The Standard and see what those American girls are up to at the dawn of the century.

Thursday, January 12, 2012

Le Panorama, Summer 1899


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Get the full hi-res scan here.

So I've started my series on the origins of the girlie pulp with La Vie Parisienne and plan a number short posts on how the magazine influenced the magazine soup of the 1920s that birthed them. First, however, I want to take a look at a few earlier publications that might shed some light on some previous evolution of the girlie magazine. The cover and illustration art from La Vie Parisienne had great influence on the girlie pulps, but there were other influences from France as well, particularly in the photographic vein.

Today, I'm posting a periodical French photo album from Summer of 1899. In the back of the pulps for years, you could find on offer from peddlers "French Photos", "French Postcards," French Album", as code for pictures of naked women. Judging from the use of multiple languages throughout, this publication appears to have also been distributed well-outside of France, and I imagine it is representative of other magazines like it.

A strange album, the photos are much doctored, airbrushing of the naughty bits is as odd as the insertion of models into backgrounds. Next time, I'll post some American publications from the same period that are also experimenting with photographic trickery. The pink cover stock and rainbow tinted inks are pretty cool. Thanks to McCoy for the edit!

The inside front cover/indicia page:

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Ladies at the beach...


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Err, isn't that the girl from the middle of the previous picture also in this one, in the same pose?

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You quickly realize looking through the photos that something isn't quite right with the perspective and the figures:


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Any naughty bits on the figures is airbrushed out:


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This one looks like it has two different photographic background sort of slapped together, look at the treeline in the background.


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I like the centerfold, with the flowers around the border:


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Little bits of grass cover the nipples of this lass. Hey, isn't sunbathing with your goods on display in front of the field hands a bit provocative?!?!


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Love the red ink.


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The back cover in cool rainbow ink with advertisements and magazine credits.


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Next time, a look at some proto-girlie magazines from this same period in America that also experimented with photography and veered from fashion/theater news into naughtier territories.

Monday, January 9, 2012

La Vie Parisienne / Francis Smilby's Stolen Sweets


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The first issue of La Vie Parisienne I ever saw. Dated 1917-08-25, I found this beauty tucked away in a little booth in an antique mall in Lawrence, KS. A playful but thoughtful lass looks longingly to the sea. Where's her man? Gone to war? Set to sail? Hurry home, handsome, youthful love is fleeting. I don't have a full scan for this issue (my copy is missing pages), but McCoy and I have prepared a few issues which I'll be posting links to full scans for later in the post. I've done some work killing the fold where someone has folded this issue in half but I haven't done much work removing the bleed. Still - a gorgeous image.

I begin my series on the origin of the girlie pulp with La Vie Parisienne, a magazine that predated and influenced magazines in many countries in the Americas and Europe. Dian Hansen's multi-volume work from Taschen, History of Men's Magazines, opens Volume 1 with a chapter titled, "Paris 1900-1938: Cradle of Print Erotica" and the claim is not overblown. Of course there were naughty pictures and collections of erotic art before La Vie Parisienne, but most often these publications were very expensive and the playthings of the rich or as brief as a postcard when it came to the taste and affordability for the other classes and weren't periodical in nature.

The little I've read about La Vie Parisienne comes from Francis Smilby's Stolen Sweets, to my knowledge the first book written containing much information about the girlie pulps and vintage pin-up art. Smilby is probably best-remembered for his long career as a cartoonist for the likes of Playboy and Punch and had a long and successful career in illustration, advertising, and graphic design, but he also was an archivist of the blues and he recorded musicians like Otis Spann and Memphis Slim when they visited the UK during the blues revival of the late 50s and 60s. We pin-up aficionados thank him greatly for Stolen Sweets, a book that has very much influenced lovers of girlie art and spurred much further investigation. Jack Raglin posted his remembrances of Smilby in a series of posts on his blog starting here, and Douglas Ellis mentions Stolen Sweets as the first, essential book on the subject in his Uncovered: The Hidden Art of the Girlie Pulps and avoids where possible printing the same covers (I'm sure I'll be mentioning Ellis' book later in this blog series on the girlies).



Stolen Sweets is sadly out-of-print, but do find a copy if you can. Smilby focuses on a narrow selection of artists (Enoch Bolles in particular) and does not offer too much information regarding specific girlie pulp titles, but his taste is excellent, and he celebrates the vintage pin-up with a well-written aesthetic appreciation in addition to fantastic full-page reproductions of French magazine and classic girlie pulp (and movie mag) covers. In particular, I admire his enumeration of the qualities of the vintage pin-up, and I'm going to quote him at length here. Of the ladies painted on the covers of these magazines, Smilby writes of the pin-up girl in his preface, contrasting her with her photographed counterpart:

How very different are the girls of the artists. These are as fresh, as lively and lovely as the day they were painted. For ironically, the artists was capable of producing a far more vital, more living image than the camera. And it is these qualities, as epitomized by these girls, that make many of their photographic descendants on the covers of today look lifeless and dull.

As a professional artist myself, I have not only an affection for these covers but also a great admiration for the unsung and often unknown artists who created them. Indeed, everything in this book comes from my personal collection, assembled over many years.

The girls to be found on the inside pages of these magazines, whether in illustrations or cartoons, generally exist within a story context. But the girls on the covers have the special quality of a pinup. They exist in their own right, and without relationship to others. Their only communication is with the reader, and it is this direct and intimate involvement that is the basis of their appeal.

There is much to be enjoyed in these covers - elegance, gaiety and wit, happiness and nostalgia, sex appeal and fun. And maybe there's something to be learned as well. Perhaps we should try to infuse a little of these very human attributes into some of the more clinical attitudes toward sex so often found in the world of today. Dehumanizing attitudes that can reduce the magic of femininity to mere physical and anatomical terms. Whereas these charming girls of not-so-long ago remain as feminine, as entrancing as ever - as fresh as the day they came of the drawing board.


Smilby describes so well the magic of the pin-up artist.

He begins the book with a discussion of the French magazines, and I believe his English perspective is particularly suited to the task. First off, it can be hard here in America to find the earlier French magazines like La Vie Parisienne, Le Sourire, and Paris Plaisirs, secondly, Smilby has a European insight into the French culture (and language) that we vulgar, err puritanical, err whatever, Americans (I speak for myself, at least) are lacking, and, indeed, perhaps no other country could have produced such a unique magazine. Love affairs and all matters having to do with love have always been a French concern. Smilby writes, France was the first lady in the world of love, and over the centuries had so polished and perfected the art of love that it seems difficult to believe that it wasn't a French invention. Flirtation for women was a fin art, indeed almost a way fo life, and for the men, galanterie was more than a mere code of manners. The magazine La Vie Parisienne was to become the leading reflection of this national love affair with love."

La Vie Parisienne began on January 4, 1863, as a weekly magazine covering most facets of high society from art to politics. The magazines slogan spoke to its many contents "Moeurs Elegantes, Choses du Jour, Fantaisies, Voyages, Theatres, Musique, Modes" (Elegant Customs, Current Affairs, Imaginative Pieces, Travel, Theater, Music, Fashion). By the late 1870s, illustrations began to appear displaying the more frivolous and slightly naughty aspects of the Le Moulin Rouge and the music hall. As the 80s progressed more and more stories and features appeared showing the more intimate details of the mode and manners of the various social classes in their sometimes secret lives, and this trend would continue into the new century along with the addition of advertisements for luxury items and sometimes risque products for the upper class. And class attitudes and mores had so much to do with how different national audiences suppressed or embraced sex, sexiness, extra-marital sex, and the magazines that sold such. Smilby writes:

The stage door of the theater was, certainly from the eighteenth century at least, a place where gentlemen of taste, refinement, and money could meet pretty girls who, though not social equals, had the advantage of possessing virtue that was indirectly purchasable without being chalked up in the brutal economic terms of the whore; girls with whom some semblance of a relationship could be enjoyed.

During the late Victorian times, a prosperous leisured class had time and money on its hands. The entertainment industry, the theater and music hall, thrived, and so did the stage-door johnny. Wives appeared quite happy to be left in sexual peace, and to endure, or indeed accept, their husbands' extramarital affairs. Provided, that is, that they were of an approved social level. A love affair with an equal might rate as infidelity, whereas a mere affaire with an inferior - an actress or show girl - did not endanger the social status of the wife.


It was the large, libertine class of France that could afford and appreciate La Vie Parisienne. The advertisements, stories, and illustrations all point to a level of sexual liberation amongst both French women and men out of place in other countries. The large English middle class has always had a tendency towards censorship and suppressing the appetites and vulgarities of the upper and lower classes, and the naughty magazines in America did not bloom until the 1920s after various genres of magazines were able to push the boundaries of mainstream or at least side-street acceptability for risque content.

Smilby writes of LVP:

But it cannot be too strongly emphasized that it was no commonplace periodical. Indeed it was of the very highest quality, written for, and read by, the upper and moneyed classes. This was splendidly demonstrated by a full-page advertisement that appeared in 1907. Headed "Sovereigns with Subscriptions to La Vie Parisienne," it illustrated no less than eight European monarchs who were all subscribers, including Czar Nicholas of Russia and, boldly centered, His Majesty King Edward VII of England. Its stories were for elegant society, its fashion articles for women of taste and weath. Never did its drawing feature the petite bourgeoisie...La Vie Parisienne was strictly for "upstairs," and it was indisputably the leader, the forerunner, of a whole world of publications that dealt with what nowadays we call "sex," and which the French, with far more flair and feeling, simly called l'amour. It was the traditional association of France with l'amour, in the arts as well as in social life, that combined with this high social level of permissiveness and the new twentieth-century creative impetus to make Paris the center of the world of sex - the dream city that filled the nights of lonely men the world over: the mecca of those who dreamed of women, love, and beauty.


By World War I, La Vie Parisienne hit its stride, and the years from the war up to the 30s were the heyday of the magazine. When American soldiers went to Europe to fight, they found there a magazine the likes of which they'd never seen before which would absolutely influence their magazine ventures upon returning.
Indeed, many of the covers of the day spoke directly to the American in gratitude. Two cover images I've gathered from eBay from the war. The first is by Georges Léonnec, himself a veteran of WWI and quite the gifted artist for the February 9th cover in 1918:



And another small eBay image for the May 19, 1917, issue (I can't make out the artist):



There is a way-cool site here with more images from wartime issues as part of larger project on French magazines from the war in general. Click around, and you will find samples of many French magazines, a very cool project and a neat avenue for learning about The Great War.

Before I get on to the issues I'm sharing, let me give a final word from Smilby on the real appeal of the magazine, the art, "In a land where women and love were worshiped as almost never before, La Vie bred and developed a group of very gifted artists - Léonnec, Barbier, Hérouard, René Vincent, Kuhn-Regnier, Maurice Milliére, Vallée, Brunner, Pavis, Vald'Es - whose understanding of the very essence of femininity, whether mental or physical was unsurpassed. They produced work whose excellence in terms of draftsmanship, observation, imagination, and understanding made La Vie Parisienne of the period unequaled of its kind, and possibly never to be repeated." And while I admit I do sometimes find LVP high-falutin' and stubbornly understand next to zero of the French language, the art in the magazine is often jaw-dropping, ranging from art noveau to art deco to more classical modes, so onto a display of the art and enough of the jabberjaw.

All three full issues I'm sharing tonight were actually labelled as "from the Smilby collection" when I got them from England from eBay. They seemed to be apart from any larger collection. I do hope that all the lovelies he collected during his life have found a safe home. On to the scans!

La Vie Parisienne 1921-04-16 (Darwin-DPP)

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Get the full hi-res scan here.

Whoa, mama. Cover by Georges Pavis. These French girls can be more than a little intimidating. They seem to be in charge most of the time, heaven forbid. Centaurs, fauns, fairies and other woodland beasts appear often in the pages of LVP, giving the magazine an A Midsummer Night's Dream quality.

more images from the issue:

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I better stick a page of advertisements in here while I'm at it. The nature of a magazine's advertisements reveals much about who is reading and with what intent.

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La Vie Parisienne 1922-06-17 (D&M). Merci to McCoy for the edit work!

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Get the full hi-res scan here.

She takes such care of her pitiful piggy. I don't think that is a look of contempt... I've seen a few pig covers on LVP - it almost makes you feel ashamed for being a man, oink, oink.


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the centerfold

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The little spot illustrations that pepper the magazine are great, directly influential on the girlie pulps.




by Henry Gerbault

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La Vie Parisienne 1929-09-07 (D&M). Thanks again to monsieur McCoy for the artful edit.

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Get the full hi-res scan here.

Cover by Léonnec. Beware the goat. The devil often appears on the magazine's covers. Always hanging around, always up to something naughty, stirring from the nether regions.

Ain't sayin she's a gold digger,

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the centerfold, the beach is always popular in the 20s issues

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Don Juan at it again, illustrated fiction.

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from the inside back cover, I like to collect images of monkeys and apes with girls //



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And to finish my post tonight, here is a gallery of some more covers and art from the magazine. The first three are from Stolen Sweets. I sure would like to see the book come back into print. The prices of a used copy seem to indicate there is an audience. Perhaps, at least, there is a way to do a digital version.

December 5, 1925 - Léonnec, "Innocence." Smilby's caption goes "The curious blend of innocence and voluptuous debauchery implicit in [the] painting should perhaps be viewed in relation to the contemporary cult of some smart-set partygoers for opium. In spite of its title, an extraordinarily sensuous and powerfully erotic cover."

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I wonder whether the above cover influenced one of my favorite Weird Tales covers from the enormously talented Margaret Brundage, from the October 1934 issue, image gathered from Heritage Auctions:

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A couple of butterfly covers. I collect covers with the butterfly theme (my wife was once a Lepidopterist), sometime I'll have to do a butterfly-themed post.

June 17, 1933 - Leo Fontan

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September 10, 1932 - Umberto Brunelleschi

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Also from Stolen Sweets, some 1892 interior illustrations. I'd like to find some of the earlier issues - or maybe some collector will start scanning them ;D

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A Pavis predecessor to the girl on the moon I posted last time from Bedtime Stories, image from here.


To go with the goat cover from the 1929 issue, some devilish images:




January 9, 1926 - Léonnec


Not quite a devil. Curious with the question marks. This last bunch are some nice images from eBay. Somebody was selling framed cut out covers. There's a lot of that for this magazine because people frame covers and cut out the color pages for prints. I hate to see magazine butchers at work, but I think lots of the art from this title has at least been saved that way. I try not to get too mad at the people who cut magazines up, grr. La Vie Parisienne 1919-11-01 cover Herouard


A ghost of a man. La Vie Parisienne 1917-02-10 cover Leonnec


This reminded me of the cover I opened with. La Vie Parisienne date unknown Herouard


Rainbow power - La Vie Parisienne 1923-04-14 cover Fontan


Cupid is a constant presence on the LVP covers, he's everywhere, striking up trouble per usual. She looks none too impressed. La Vie Parisienne 1921-07-16 cover Herouard

Damn Cupid. La Vie Parisienne 1924-11-29 Herouard


This bird talks to animals, I tells ya


And to boot, here's a very nice collection of Chéri Hérouard art that I stumbled upon while looking about for this post, a collection of images made during the creation of a wiki for him.

Next time, some follow-up on La Vie Parisienne and Paris' impact on American magazines. La Vie Parisienne was copied, pilfered, slandered, and translated by decades of American publishers. French becomes synonymous with dirty, Parisifying pulp and girlie mag titles for decades to come. French photos, you know the kind.